Re: Traditional palette vs. modern 573 by Ed on 05/23/01 at 8:54 PM
Re: Traditional palette vs. modern

In Reply to: Re: Traditional palette vs. modern posted by Steve Sauer on 05/22/01 at 5:36 PM:

"What causes that color change?"
From what I’ve been able to find out it may have something to do with the size of the particles and the amount/intensity of the light it has been exposed to. I get the impression that this is one of those questions they still don’t have an adequate answer for.

"That means mercuric sulfide is not light sensitive."
Nope, it is, or more correctly CAN be. Linseed oil does appear to offer added protection but not in all cases. Look it up if you have any doubts.

"If it was, all samples of Vermilion would have blackened."
No, that does not follow - some obviously haven’t but more importantly some have and before you say it, yes, even pure pigment with no red lead.

"Emerald green, Orpiment, Realgar, Verdigris, Malachite, Azurite, etc.. Not Vermilion. It doesn't out-gas like orpiment and realgar, and it's not an unstable compound like the copper greens. Varnish should not make a bit of difference with Vermilion."
Again, don’t take my word for it, look it up. The conservation departments at the National Gallery and the V&A, to name two, have stated that it appears to have some bearing on its longevity.

"Like any pigment. Only certain pigments like Titanium white are truly perfectly stable and can be mixed with anything. "
No, not like ANY pigment. There are at least two dozen that have no intermixing issue whatsoever.

"If perfect permanence was the only characteristic of a pigment that is valuable, we would all be painting with Titanium white instead of Flake, and using Cobalt or Cerulean Blue rather than any organic blue. etc. "
Just which organic blue are you referring to? Surely not the phthalocyanines???? They are among the most stable pigments known. The only other synthetic organic blue I am aware of is Indanthrone blue (PB60) which I don’t use but I think is ASTM I also. And as for natural organic pigments, other than the blacks I wouldn’t touch them for they are mostly (all?) unreliable.

"Reasonable permanence is acceptable. Cobalt yellow, for example..."
I don’t use this but in oils I think it is ASTM II, which is actually better than reasonable permanence in most people’s books.

"The same thing is often said about cadmium colors, too... Should we also not use cadmium colors?"
Come on! The fault here is the Flake White, not the cadmium colours! :-) And from my research this is only with cadmium colours where there is free sulphur remaining, which is rare in modern manufacturing processes. Anyone with concerns in this regard should do accelerated lightfastness tests like I am in the process of doing, just to make sure. A test I found on the net showed virtually no difference after a year of exposure to direct sunlight but I’m repeating it to be sure.

"Vermilion was traditionally mixed with lead white for flesh tones. How many painters did this successfully for hundreds of years before Naphol was even thought of? The only "disastrous" results occurred when the Vermilion was adulterated with read lead."
Not true, do your research. While it quite obviously has not altered in some cases, it just as obviously has in others and they are uncertain as to the reasons for its failure. Why do you think the colourmen went searching for a replacement to one of their best-selling colours????

: True, but there are plenty who say the same thing about Flake White, and the cadmiums. Also, there are others who are very suspicious of many organic pigments because they have not been thoroughly tested or because they have certain undesirable properties (such as the tendency to fade in tints or mixtures)."
Well, don’t use those ones, use the many that don’t fade in tints or mixtures! Alizarin Crimson is one of the biggest failures in this regard as apparently it will fade in light tints and glazes even in the dark and this is hardly news.

"Grinding cadmium colors is just as toxic."
No it is not, do your research. While I wouldn’t suggest cadmium is not a health risk their toxicities are not nearly the same. - cadmium is far less toxic than mercury. To quote one source: 'as a matter of record toxic effects from cadmium almost never occur.' I don’t mean to be obtuse but do you know the WHO guidelines for safe levels of mercury? Zero.
Check out this link if you have any doubts about the toxicity of mercury:
http://www.csmi.med.ed.ac.uk/session2/group29/merctox.htm

"Mercuric sulfide is insoluble in water. This makes it far less dangerous than soluble mercury compounds."
Yes, but it still poses a significant health risk.

"Flake white is actually far more dangerous to work with than Vermilion"
Sorry but this is patently false! I don’t mean to be rude but please do your research before spreading misinformation like this. Lead is FAR LESS toxic than mercury, if it wasn’t we’d all be dead from the lead in the environment from leaded petrol.

"Emerald green is far more toxic than Vermilion."
Yes of course it is. But that doesn’t make Vermillion non-toxic.

"You argue against my points by arguing for the perspective of the amateur artist with a laissez-faire understanding of pigment chemistry and yet you expect people to know the fine details of 30 different types of Phalo or 20 types of Naphol? I'm exaggerating a bit, but there is a lot more complexity with regard to certain families of organics, because they come in many varieties."
This isn’t rocket science you know. Exaggerating a bit? As far as I am aware there are only two or three forms of phthalo blue (PB15:1 to PB15:3) and two of green (PG7 and PG36) commonly made into paints which is hardly 30 - let’s not make this seem more complex than it already is.

If anyone is committed to producing work of permanence it is easily within their grasp to find out the basics of sound pigment choice and in a short time. It is also much easier today than it was only a decade ago. For example 'The Wilcox Guide to the Finest Oil Paints' provides almost all one needs in a single volume.


Follow Ups:

Re: Traditional palette vs. modern Steve Sauer   Posted at: 05/26/01 (3)
Re: Traditional palette vs. modern Ed   Posted at: 05/26/01 (2)
Re: Traditional palette vs. modern Steve Sauer   Posted at: 05/27/01 (1)
Re: Traditional palette vs. modern Ed   Posted at: 05/28/01 (0)

Post a Followup 545,548,555,560,565,566,573"> Ed"> ed1177_yahoo.co.ukRe: Traditional palette vs. modern_05/23/01 at 8:54 PM"> "Re: Traditional palette vs. modern"
: "What causes that color change?" : From what I’ve been able to find out it may have something to do with the size of the particles and the amount/intensity of the light it has been exposed to. I get the impression that this is one of those questions they still don’t have an adequate answer for. : "That means mercuric sulfide is not light sensitive." : Nope, it is, or more correctly CAN be. Linseed oil does appear to offer added protection but not in all cases. Look it up if you have any doubts. : "If it was, all samples of Vermilion would have blackened." : No, that does not follow - some obviously haven’t but more importantly some have and before you say it, yes, even pure pigment with no red lead. : "Emerald green, Orpiment, Realgar, Verdigris, Malachite, Azurite, etc.. Not Vermilion. It doesn't out-gas like orpiment and realgar, and it's not an unstable compound like the copper greens. Varnish should not make a bit of difference with Vermilion." : Again, don’t take my word for it, look it up. The conservation departments at the National Gallery and the V&A, to name two, have stated that it appears to have some bearing on its longevity. : "Like any pigment. Only certain pigments like Titanium white are truly perfectly stable and can be mixed with anything. " : No, not like ANY pigment. There are at least two dozen that have no intermixing issue whatsoever. : "If perfect permanence was the only characteristic of a pigment that is valuable, we would all be painting with Titanium white instead of Flake, and using Cobalt or Cerulean Blue rather than any organic blue. etc. " : Just which organic blue are you referring to? Surely not the phthalocyanines???? They are among the most stable pigments known. The only other synthetic organic blue I am aware of is Indanthrone blue (PB60) which I don’t use but I think is ASTM I also. And as for natural organic pigments, other than the blacks I wouldn’t touch them for they are mostly (all?) unreliable. : "Reasonable permanence is acceptable. Cobalt yellow, for example..." : I don’t use this but in oils I think it is ASTM II, which is actually better than reasonable permanence in most people’s books. : "The same thing is often said about cadmium colors, too... Should we also not use cadmium colors?" : Come on! The fault here is the Flake White, not the cadmium colours! :-) And from my research this is only with cadmium colours where there is free sulphur remaining, which is rare in modern manufacturing processes. Anyone with concerns in this regard should do accelerated lightfastness tests like I am in the process of doing, just to make sure. A test I found on the net showed virtually no difference after a year of exposure to direct sunlight but I’m repeating it to be sure. : "Vermilion was traditionally mixed with lead white for flesh tones. How many painters did this successfully for hundreds of years before Naphol was even thought of? The only "disastrous" results occurred when the Vermilion was adulterated with read lead." : Not true, do your research. While it quite obviously has not altered in some cases, it just as obviously has in others and they are uncertain as to the reasons for its failure. Why do you think the colourmen went searching for a replacement to one of their best-selling colours???? True, but there are plenty who say the same thing about Flake White, and the cadmiums. Also, there are others who are very suspicious of many organic pigments because they have not been thoroughly tested or because they have certain undesirable properties (such as the tendency to fade in tints or mixtures)." : Well, don’t use those ones, use the many that don’t fade in tints or mixtures! Alizarin Crimson is one of the biggest failures in this regard as apparently it will fade in light tints and glazes even in the dark and this is hardly news. : "Grinding cadmium colors is just as toxic." : No it is not, do your research. While I wouldn’t suggest cadmium is not a health risk their toxicities are not nearly the same. - cadmium is far less toxic than mercury. To quote one source: 'as a matter of record toxic effects from cadmium almost never occur.' I don’t mean to be obtuse but do you know the WHO guidelines for safe levels of mercury? Zero. : Check out this link if you have any doubts about the toxicity of mercuryhttp://www.csmi.med.ed.ac.uk/session2/group29/merctox.htm : "Mercuric sulfide is insoluble in water. This makes it far less dangerous than soluble mercury compounds." : Yes, but it still poses a significant health risk. : "Flake white is actually far more dangerous to work with than Vermilion" : Sorry but this is patently false! I don’t mean to be rude but please do your research before spreading misinformation like this. Lead is FAR LESS toxic than mercury, if it wasn’t we’d all be dead from the lead in the environment from leaded petrol. : "Emerald green is far more toxic than Vermilion." : Yes of course it is. But that doesn’t make Vermillion non-toxic. : "You argue against my points by arguing for the perspective of the amateur artist with a laissez-faire understanding of pigment chemistry and yet you expect people to know the fine details of 30 different types of Phalo or 20 types of Naphol? I'm exaggerating a bit, but there is a lot more complexity with regard to certain families of organics, because they come in many varieties." : This isn’t rocket science you know. Exaggerating a bit? As far as I am aware there are only two or three forms of phthalo blue (PB15:1 to PB15:3) and two of green (PG7 and PG36) commonly made into paints which is hardly 30 - let’s not make this seem more complex than it already is. : If anyone is committed to producing work of permanence it is easily within their grasp to find out the basics of sound pigment choice and in a short time. It is also much easier today than it was only a decade ago. For example 'The Wilcox Guide to the Finest Oil Paints' provides almost all one needs in a single volume.

 
A. A. Art. This Site designed and maintained by Alexei Antonov
Translation from Russian Copyright (c) 1999 Vladimir Pavlov.
Copyright (c) 1999 Alexei Antonov. All rights reserved.